At The Future of Web Design in New York, the final session of the day was a panel discussion on the frictions and misunderstandings that often arise between designers and developers working together. The panel was chaired by Liz Danzico, while putting across the the developers’ point of view we had Joe Stump and Chris Lea, while on the design side of things we had Ryan Sims, and Daniel Burka.
The audience provided lots of great questions to ask the panel, but, unfortunately, there wasn’t enough time to answer them all (I have a stack of about 60 here on my desk). I thought I’d publish a collection of ten of the best unasked questions and see if the Vitamin audience, which is comprised of both designers and developers, can’t come up with some answers.
Here is the list of questions:
- Would I be a better designer to work with if I knew coding myself? Do developers appreciate knowledgeable designers?
- Designers: Developers don’t like you because you represent Work and don’t see why said work is wholly necessary. Developers: Designers are scared of you because you are the gatekeeper. This is the dynamic. Discuss.
- How can stronger communication be developed not only between designers and developers, but also between designers, developers, and creative teams (art director, copywriter)? How can a team bring them into the fold more effectively?
- To developers: if there was one thing ― an ability, a bit of knowledge, an understanding ― that you could instill in all designers with the wave of a magic wand, what would it be?
- How do you keep the goal of the project front and center so that design and development can keep a “common good” as their primary function?
- What’s the most helpful thing a designer can do before handing over design files?
- How soon should a developer be engaged to sense-check a design? At design brief? Before it goes to the client?
- Is it a mistake to make the lead developer the project manager?
- How can I get the developer to give me an absolute answer on whether something is doable?
- It seems that designers are under pressure to design an exceptional and unique experience and developers are under presssure to produce sites with high performance and little/no errors. Designer’s goals add pressure to developers and vice versa. How can our goals work together intead of causing pressure on each other?
Please provide your thoughts in the comments: it would be great to get comments from both designers and developers (no trolling, please!)
4: To developers: if there was one thing ― an ability, a bit of knowledge, an understanding ― that you could instill in all designers with the wave of a magic wand, what would it be?
Pixel-perfect layouts and font rendering will not look the same across all browsers/platforms; so stop worrying about where the line break is in this particular paragraph of text.
All too often, the designer cries foul when their image-heavy layouts look different when brought to the web. The developer’s job is to make the site quick, responsive, and light - all based on a 300dpi, 18MB photoshop document that the designer has provided.
The designers have GOT to be open to a slimmed down version of their design and accept the common fonts available on the web. Not only do they need to understand what common fonts are available, they also need to understand that some people like to set their browser to render the fonts in a much larger scale - thus preventing the designer’s pixel-perfect photoshop layout from being perfect any longer.
Question 4: To developers: if there was one thing ― an ability, a bit of knowledge, an understanding ― that you could instill in all designers with the wave of a magic wand, what would it be?
Drop shadows look awful in gifs. Therefore PNG-24 is needed and IE6 doesn’t support this. Therefore drop shadows are usually a no no.
An appreciation of unseen complexities and the limits of the technologies in use should be enough
Developers are definitely the gatekeepers, since it’s the developer who says whether something is possible. I don’t think developers are afraid of work but rather resistant to work which isn’t completely justified.
Everyone needs to not take criticism about their ideas personally. Once an idea has been put to the team it’s everyone’s place to trash it if necessary.
That even the slightest addition to a page, no matter how seemingly trivial, can potentially add huge complexity to the code behind it.
Be extremely skeptical of any suggestions to add new things, restructuring is fine though
Make sure all the images are well layered and organised, even if the designer is doing the html/css. It helps if the developer can dip into the same resource pool
Before it becomes too late to change something (ie before a stakeholder gets emotionallyu attached to an idea).
If by lead developer you mean programmer, usually it is a bad idea. Not always though.
The reality is that it almost always is doable, if a developer is being cautious it either means it’s a really bad idea and/or it will add unknown or excessive complexity.
I’d be cautious if a designer is being urged to do something unique, unique doesn’t mean good and it doesn’t mean usable. If the real unique ideas don’t come out in the initial meetings it would be a bad idea to try and bolt them on later. The best unique ideas are ones that simplify things in ways that haven’t been (knowingly) tried before, a coder won’t often complain about that even if it means extra work.
Okay, that lost all the list formatting :/
Would I be a better designer to work with if I knew coding myself?
Yes.
Do developers appreciate knowledgeable designers?
Yes.
That was easy.
(My background: designer soul with skills in html/css)
@Jon: I think “pixel perfecion” could be seen as a goal, although it’s somethimes impossible to achive. It makes you try harder. I somethimes think that developers are using the “it’s the web, live with it” argument because they are a bit lazy…
@Phil Cook: We’ve been using transparent png’s in IE6 for years, that’s not a problem.
An interesting set of questions, and one of which at our agency that comprises creatives, designers and developers that we have over the years attempted to get around, and now for the most part successfully do :) Hopefully the following will be useful, it’s not perfect, but it is what works for us. Just reading through this sorry for the length…
I feel that part of the success is having clearly defined roles within the site build process, and for the areas where they overlap to have a defined lead between roles. In picking the lead it is necessary to make the choice on end goal, and not necessarily over hierarchy etc. Since there is a lot of discussion as to what makes a designer, developer etc. for the below this is how we split them out:
Creative: Art direction
Designer: Slice, including CSS, HTML and JavaScript (although these are normally through developer prepared libraries)
Developer: DB, Business Logic and XSLT
1. Would I be a better designer to work with if I knew coding myself? Do developers appreciate knowledgeable designers?
Although a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing I know our developers really appreciate the time spent by designers to understand a little more about what they are doing and how they have/prefer to go about things. Sometimes it is dangerous, we previously had a designer who would when wanting to introduce JS to a site go and lift horrendous code from third party example sites all whilst the company was promoting well worked, accessible code which in turn then involved large rewrites where 99% the same or equivalent code was available in-house.
There is, I believe an upper limit to what a designer really should be spending their time learning (unless they want to move into development), and this covers any development constraints, a mild knowledge of the development framework (e.g. what are the calls into the render layer, are there some ways of doing things that are easier than others), and a brief knowledge of the bits and pieces they might see in the files where designers and developers meet.
2. Designers: Developers don’t like you because you represent Work and don’t see why said work is wholly necessary. Developers: Designers are scared of you because you are the gatekeeper. This is the dynamic. Discuss.
This could be huge, or very short. In short the above should meld away when designers and developers get the chance to go for a beer / go bowling / etc. chat briefly about what they are doing and realise that they are all on the same team to get the same project out.
3. How can stronger communication be developed not only between designers and developers, but also between designers, developers, and creative teams (art director, copywriter)? How can a team bring them into the fold more effectively?
In any non-complex project there will always be a degree of crossover between disciplines, only by proper stages, communication, hand over periods and rules can a project be effectively brought to completion. Here we run with dedicated PMs who direct the project through each of the stages, keeping everyone on target for the end goal (of which design and development are just a small part). The build stages we run through are Scoping (involving the sales person, PM, the creative, a designer, a developer and the client that are involve in the project), Prototyping ( HTML slice), Development (Integration of slice into CMS and modules), and Content Entry and Polish ( QA, Designer and Developer working hand in hand to make sure the finished product is up to our internal standards). For communication between each stage there is a sign-off and handover to ensure that everything is communicated between parties, also by virtue of designers and developers working in the same room I’ll often see the two conversing a different stages in different projects about the most effective way to handle something.
4. To developers: if there was one thing ― an ability, a bit of knowledge, an understanding ― that you could instil in all designers with the wave of a magic wand, what would it be?
Structure
5. What’s the most helpful thing a designer can do before handing over design files?
Talking to the developer over key features, little twists in the design and highlighting areas that will not automatically be obvious to the developer. Remember developers focus on the functional, designers and normally clients focus on the frills.
6. How soon should a developer be engaged to sense-check a design? At design brief? Before it goes to the client?
At the earliest possible stage that it makes commercial sense, possibly even at the initial creative (a 10 minute chat can often save days of work later on).
7. Is it a mistake to make the lead developer the project manager?
Often the case is yes, but this depends on the person and the project. Developers in my experience (myself included since that is my background), are notoriously bad a spotting the little flourishes that make a site / application. Often having the PM more closely aligned to the client and their business goals will result in a better solution; exceptions to this are R&D projects etc. where a dev lead might be sensible, or a joint dev / PM lead may suffice.
8. How can I get the developer to give me an absolute answer on whether something is doable?
Everything is possible (well nearly everything and it might not be in the developers skill set), by setting the expectation of time (cutting your own fat for any overruns and there will be overruns). Be clear with the time, resources (if outsourcing), and the requirement (being clear on business case); after that if you trust the developer listen to what they suggest doing to meet the requirement – if you don’t trust the developer what are you doing working with them?
9. It seems that designers are under pressure to design an exceptional and unique experience and developers are under pressure to produce sites with high performance and little/no errors. Designer’s goals add pressure to developers and vice versa. How can our goals work together instead of causing pressure on each other?
Clear timescales, honest deadlines and defined key stages from the outset. In any project hiccups occur, being honest with clients *at the time of hiccup* letting them know impact etc. tends to avoid the squeeze. Only when things are hidden, or not clearly communicated to parties does this really start to hurt.
Speaking as someone that straddles the designer/developer fence, a “Devigner” if you will:
1. Would I be a better designer to work with if I knew coding myself? Do developers appreciate knowledgeable designers?
If we are talking about HTML/CSS as “coding” then yes, having some basic clue about coding instils a idea of designing processes rather than just pretty visuals. Even if that idea is vague, being aware of how someone else needs to work can only be good. If we are talking server side, then no. It’s not the designer’s job.
Some of the comments above this one mention a designer’s anal attention to detail. The fact of the matter is, a good designer does stuff for a reason. Just as a designer may not grasp coding concepts a developer may not understand the nuances of typography, vertical rhythm, colour theory etc.
It works both ways.
2. Designers: Developers don’t like you because you represent Work and don’t see why said work is wholly necessary.
Echoing an earlier observation, I think it’s more because developers often see change for change’s sake rather than necessity.
Developers: Designers are scared of you because you are the gatekeeper. This is the dynamic. Discuss.
I think that’s nonsense to be honest. Any fear a designer has of a developer is down to lack of social skills on behalf of them both. If the designer is “scared” they DO need to learn more about the process involved in coding, it’s not alchemy despite what the developer might think.
3. How can stronger communication be developed not only between designers and developers, but also between designers, developers, and creative teams (art director, copywriter)? How can a team bring them into the fold more effectively?
Get each other involved in your side of the project. What’s more, when the opportunity to get involved is there, try to understand it and show an interest.
4. To developers: if there was one thing ― an ability, a bit of knowledge, an understanding ― that you could instill in all designers with the wave of a magic wand, what would it be?
Design, when relating to websites isn’t just about the visual, it’s often about processes, structure and usage. The visual is the cherry on the cake. Learn to think about websites, particularly web apps, not in terms of printed brochures. When working for the web you are as much designing the concept of ‘printed books’ as you are what that book looks like.
5. How do you keep the goal of the project front and center so that design and development can keep a “common good” as their primary function?
Talk to each other and have fun doing it. Talk about how cool it’s going to be when it’s finished.
6. What’s the most helpful thing a designer can do before handing over design files?
Cover all the angles. Have you actually designed what is needed or just a bit of it for someone to fill in the blanks?
Group and properly label layers in a PSD.
Name and organise files logically so anyone picking up the project knows what is what.
If you’ve got time, provide some kind of explanation, be it written or verbal, of what you’re handing over.
Finally make sure it’s ALL there! My bugbear is being given stuff to work on urgently then finding half of it is missing.
7. How soon should a developer be engaged to sense-check a design? At design brief? Before it goes to the client?
Depends on the definition of design, the complexity of the project and the experience of the designer in working for the web.
8. Is it a mistake to make the lead developer the project manager?
No. Likewise it’s not good to have the designer as project manager either. Sometimes it can’t be helped but I see project management as a third discipline alongside coding and designing.
9. How can I get the developer to give me an absolute answer on whether something is doable?
Ask them a sensible question. Generally anything is possible it comes down to the old “choose 2 from fast, cheap, good”.
Often the requests I get on these lines are fuelled by someone not fully understanding what they are asking or why they are asking it. When that happens you can end up producing junk that clearly isn’t going to work and gets binned before launch just because it was asked for. As a developer, work with the designer to think these things through before it gets messy.
10. It seems that designers are under pressure to design an exceptional and unique experience and developers are under pressure to produce sites with high performance and little/no errors. Designer’s goals add pressure to developers and vice versa. How can our goals work together instead of causing pressure on each other?
Start thinking about them as a single goal rather than 2 different goals. Good user experience isn’t just about pretties and likewise it isn’t just about zippy performance. As soon as designers and developers start hugging and realise they are on the same side things will be better.
Some great thoughts already, I’m really enjoying reading through the input here!
1. Yes, we appreciate when a designer has an understanding of how it can/will be implemented.
2. I appreciate good design. If it’s just different, (no better) then there ought to be a case made for why it is necessary. Should someone have to make that case? I think so.
6. Is it too much to ask for a little rational organization in the PSD? Folders? Appropriate Names? Please?
8. Yes. We’re pessimistic, and we’re already busy with building the internet. Let us build. Extra overhead is, both unwanted and a distraction. If you want to be project manager, then be that. Don’t be a developer.
9. Ask with an absolute question if you want an absolute answer. Be prepared to discuss scope, features, interactions, etc.
I often get the opportunity to design and develop, which is nice. But when back logged, being the only developer with 2 other designers I’ll go into developer only mode. In those cases I can see the designers from my desk, and this is what I’ve learned.
4. I believe everything can be done with enough work, but there is a trade off. I just want them to understand large images mean large file sizes or crappy quality. The more http requests, the longer the download time. And finally - SEO should be a part of the design, not an add on service.
Just remember - content is king on the web.
7. Early. A developer can suggest better ways of handling information that can make a design better - developers stay in the know, you can do a lot with libraries like jquery.
10. Keep the client in mind, if they’re happy and successful, then you both met your goals.
This concerns question 1. :-D
Having been a coder for a long time while working on designs, fellow developers do appreciate when you know how the code runs and especially when you are aware of the limits and discrepancies of the code and can see what will not be easily done in your design. In the long run it becomes really helpful because the designer takes these limitations in consideration when building up the design, hence avoiding the unnecessary troubles.
Sorry, these questions all seem a little condescending to me. I can’t believe that these types of arguments are still happening!
These arguments SHOULD NOT be occurring if teams building web sites/ applications are focused on their USERS. Yes it’s the people out there visiting the site, or using the application that matter, not you.
They are the ones you are designing/ developing for, they are the reason you are been paid to do the work; and they come to use your site/ app for a reason.
That reason, when properly researched using USER CENTRED DESIGN principles — which include competitive reviews, heuristic evaluations, user interviews, prototype testing and creation, interaction design, persona creation and rigorous user testing throughout all phases of design and development — will usually dictate the design to some degree; at least in regards to layout, high level IA and identifying the high level interaction use cases.
From this point it is up to the graphical designers to take this and make it look WOW!!!
Working hand in hand, with a developer is the smartest move any designer can make. Sitting down and understanding the complexities of what you are building then is going to be so much easier and will involve less back and forth; inevitably reducing frustration for all.
If you are building a site, then developers should allow more leeway for some artistic flair on page regions not likely to change as regularly as regions that will be constantly be updated, help the designer understand this.
Designers need to be open minded to the technology driving their designs. Sites are usually templated and not every heading is going to be some obscure version of Helvetica, at least not easily; and this usually means it won’t be as accessible to ALL USERS.
If you are building an application, then designers need to be made aware of how to build a set of widgets for the gui you are developing, or if there is an existing framework you are using, then talk about either how you will work with its design or how you will go about creating a new theme and the limitations of what you have to work with.
developers, if you want to be worth anything then you also need to be able to step up to the plate and implement something spectacular as well! Remember IT DOESN’T HAVE TO LOOK EXACTLY THE SAME IN EVERY BROWSER. Come to some agreements with this; if users are expecting a sexy looking design, then it’s your job to give it to them, regardless of how much hair you lose in the process.
The biggest problem I’ve seen is people working in isolation, instead of as a team. It’s not designers vs UI developers vs back end developers. it’s everyone working together with their users in mind to achieve greatness.
Just a quick side note, I think it’s interesting that the comments here put the cutting up a a design into the “developer” role. I am a “designer” but I do 95%+ of the markup on apps I work on, and even jump in to code a method or two when necessary. Are “designers” out there in the mass market just handing over PSD’s to developers? That’s ridiculous to me!
A “real” designer, IMHO, is one who cuts his own HTML/CSS and interaction JavaScript (as necessary). You better be Pablo Freakin Picasso if you want to just turn in a PSD and call it a day.
1. Would I be a better designer to work with if I knew coding myself? Do developers appreciate knowledgeable designers?
Personally, I don’t think you can be a good web designer at all if you don’t know how to code a web page. Design is NOT about just serving up some pretty. That’s what decorators do. If you’re a web designer you have to know HTML and CSS. Period. You don’t get to call yourself a web designer unless you do.
Whether or not you as a web designer know server-side code is a lot less important. So, it depends on what you mean by “developer” and “designer”. In my personal experience a developer does the back-end stuff and the designer does all the design and HTML/CSS/JS.
2. Designers: Developers don’t like you because you represent Work and don’t see why said work is wholly necessary. Developers: Designers are scared of you because you are the gatekeeper. This is the dynamic. Discuss.
Not anything like the workflow at any of the agencies I have worked for. This seems like a very weird and dysfunctional way of looking at it, and I’d be amazed if any company with working practice like that ever puts out anything on budget, on time, or that’s actually a good overall deliverable. Perhaps I’m just very lucky and have worked with teams that “get” how to do good web work.
3. How can stronger communication be developed not only between designers and developers, but also between designers, developers, and creative teams (art director, copywriter)? How can a team bring them into the fold more effectively?
This is another problem I’ve never experienced, but the obvious answer is to involve all sections at all points in the process.
4. To developers: if there was one thing ― an ability, a bit of knowledge, an understanding ― that you could instill in all designers with the wave of a magic wand, what would it be?
Assuming you mean “developers” as in people that write HTML/CSS and “designers” as people that don’t know that skillset and create visual comps to work to: I’d want to explain the way images and boxes work on the web. So there are no instances of impossible to produce design - like visual elements overflowing and interlacing where there’s nothing to hook the image onto. On the web we have only boxes to work inside. Nothing else.
How do you keep the goal of the project front and center so that design and development can keep a “common good” as their primary function?
See answer to 3. Work together at all stages.
7. How soon should a developer be engaged to sense-check a design? At design brief? Before it goes to the client?
At the “back of the envelope” stage. Depending on the system, moving adding that extra bit of editable content to the right of the footer menu might be a days work, but just above it, it might be no work at all. Which leads to:
9. How can I get the developer to give me an absolute answer on whether something is doable?
Well, the issue is that pretty much anything is possible. it is after all a virtual world. The problems are then two-fold:
a) what is the budget (financial and time wise)
b) getting an even vaguely acurate estimate of work required out of developer. Not because the developer has no clue, but because estimating development time is essentially the major unsolved mystery of the programming profession (see “Mythical Man-Month” for further info).
1. Would I be a better designer to work with if I knew coding myself? Do developers appreciate knowledgeable designers?
I appreciate designers who are experienced in HTML/CSS, which doesn’t seem common. Any knowledge past that is gravy.
2. Designers: Developers don’t like you because you represent Work and don’t see why said work is wholly necessary. Developers: Designers are scared of you because you are the gatekeeper. This is the dynamic. Discuss.
I’m a developer who also designs (mainly UI/UX), so I understand the reasoning behind design, but I acknowledge that most don’t. However, I have seen developers push designers for what they think stuff should look like, but they always forget: They aren’t the designers, let the professional do what he does best and stick to providing specs.
4. To developers: if there was one thing ― an ability, a bit of knowledge, an understanding ― that you could instill in all designers with the wave of a magic wand, what would it be?
Not all ideas are possible to implement, learn the restrictions of the software medium.
6. What’s the most helpful thing a designer can do before handing over design files?
Provide an uncompressed PNG, I don’t have Photoshop on my machine and might need to cut my own images or optimize it.
7. How soon should a developer be engaged to sense-check a design? At design brief? Before it goes to the client?
Mockups.
8. Is it a mistake to make the lead developer the project manager?
It’s not a mistake, but it isn’t preferable. It’s better to have someone with an outside view.
9. How can I get the developer to give me an absolute answer on whether something is doable?
Provide a mockup and ask.
10. It seems that designers are under pressure to design an exceptional and unique experience and developers are under pressure to produce sites with high performance and little/no errors. Designer’s goals add pressure to developers and vice versa. How can our goals work together instead of causing pressure on each other?
Something that has worked well in the past is the designer has given me mockups/wireframes of the experience, we do a couple iterations of what works and what doesn’t (helps that I have UI/UX experience as well), and then finalize it.
@Graham - yes, I thought the whole “handing over a PSD” thing had died out years ago but judging by some of the questions I didn’t post, yes, some firms still do that.
Man, I’m calling “shenanigans” on that. Or maybe I just need to ask for a raise….
Phil Cook says
That’s not actually true. PNGs break in IE6 initially, but you can fix them in a variety of ways, ranging from (surprise!) proprietary filters to CSS “behavior” that will correct the incorrect alpha handling.
So don’t give up on PNGs just yet!
To answer the question that jumped out at me the hardest:
4. To developers: if there was one thing ― an ability, a bit of knowledge, an understanding ― that you could instill in all designers with the wave of a magic wand, what would it be?
I play both sides (I’m freelance, so I design AND develop sites), and I know that the biggest thing I’ve learned as a designer that has helped me most is a firm understanding of the limitations of the Internet as it stands now (lack of consistent CSS support, the shortage of usable fonts, and so on).
The things that freak me out the most about design are A) fonts, and B) the “Save For Web…” color shift in Photoshop. The best thing I ever did to keep myself from creating an unattainable design was to print out a list of fonts that work on the web and put it in a highly visible place to help me fight off the temptation to use some beautiful, non-standard font that will break my heart when it gets replaced by Georgia.
As a developer, I often have to keep in mind that there really isn’t anything that’s out of bounds. It was already said that the only limitation in web apps is time and funding.
On the flipside of that, it’s also important to know when a design needs to be scaled down a bit to fit inside the budget. The trick is developing the ability to discern between something that would be hard as opposed to something that would be impractical.
-Jason
@Simon and Graham
Most large agencies still run with the handing over the PSD approach, the reason is tied to creativity. Whilst our creatives certainly are able to slice a design they are in our company by no means the best at it. Our designers conversely are fantastic at slicing, but will acknowledge that they aren’t the best at producing concept material and mock-ups.
It’s all about the best out of people and making the most of their skills.
1. YES! I can’t count the number of times I have been presented with designs that simply make no sense within the world of web development. I don’t think designers need to have working knowledge of programming languages, but they def. need to understand HTML/CSS (intermediate markup, modern techniques, possibilities). Also, if a designer is designing for Flash, they should understand how the Flash Player works within a web page and be familiar with the constraints and possibilities of the targeted version.
2. In the past I have felt animosity from designers that obviously stemmed from the fact that I knew what the fuck was going on and they didn’t. As far as a designer representing work, I’m all for work.
3. I think modern web teams have to be agile. work together in close quarters, and genuinely be interested in each other’s work. Each member of the team should be an expert in their own field, but each member should have some basic familiarity with the other aspects of web development and be able to do cross over work.
4. It is MUCH easier to paint a house than to rebuild it’s foundation. In other words, generally a design can be swapped out fairly easily, while functionality can not.
5. Again, I think you need an agile team that is in constant communication. A good spec will also help keep everyone on track.
6. Organize the layers. I have received some shit .ai and .psd files in my day.
7. I am against the concept of design first, so I think the developer should be involved from day one. Of course the designer can branch off, but I would say at least 3 days before delivery so the developer can catch any issues.
8. Maybe. It depends on the developer’s experience and the size of the team.
9. Don’t flake on scope. If you come to a good developer knowing exactly what you want, he/she should be able to tell you if it is doable or not.
10. Pressure is part of work under deadline. I don’t know if you can eliminate it. That being said, if everyone on the team is a highly skilled designer and developer, it will be much easier to understand one another and the pressure will subside.
FYI, for #7 I meant delivery of design approval, not of final website.
1. Would I be a better designer to work with if I knew coding myself? Do developers appreciate knowledgeable designers?
I’m not convinced that designers need to know coding per-se, but should know the capabilities and limitations of any medium in which their creative work will be used. For instance, I don’t see that knowing that font selection is limited for a Web design, or that you can’t count on the all users seeing the exact same size text and designing defensively to deal with this is any different than knowing how to set-up designs in CMYK and knowing how to work with bleeds for print output. The designer doesn’t need to know how to code HTML/CSS/JS any more than they need to know how to set-up, tune and repair an offset printing press. They just need to know what works best in each medium, and how to deal with the quirks that are associated with that medium.
2. Designers: Developers don’t like you because you represent Work and don’t see why said work is wholly necessary. Developers: Designers are scared of you because you are the gatekeeper. This is the dynamic. Discuss.
I don’t know if this is true for professionals on either end of this dynamic. Both should know and respect the abilities of the other, and focus on what is best for the actual user of the end product. If they feel this dynamic, some introspection is in order; on both ends.
3. How can stronger communication be developed not only between designers and developers, but also between designers, developers, and creative teams (art director, copywriter)? How can a team bring them into the fold more effectively?
This is probably one of the most critical points of any successful team project. Anything (technology tools, team building efforts, management style, etc.) that promotes regular communication among the players will be a benefit. It’s doubtful that there’s a Utopian system here — there are too many variables — so each team must settle into its own best dynamic by reviewing its wins and losses and adjusting from there.
4. To developers: if there was one thing ? an ability, a bit of knowledge, an understanding ? that you could instill in all designers with the wave of a magic wand, what would it be?
See #1. Designers should expect the same thing of developers too; a little knowledge of grid-based design, contrast, typography, balance, and other tools of the designer’s trade would definitely help developers to understand why they are being asked to implement the designer’s work in a particular way.
5. How do you keep the goal of the project front and center so that design and development can keep a “common good” as their primary function?
Strategically planning the whole system starting with the definition of the end goal of the project. Involving all players early, inviting (facilitated & project-managed) input and buy-in.
6. What’s the most helpful thing a designer can do before handing over design files?
See all of the above.
7. How soon should a developer be engaged to sense-check a design? At design brief? Before it goes to the client?
Very early. The functional assessment of the end-goal by those trained to think in depth, “if this, then that…” early on will help reduce the need to retreat back up the development process and re-do work. To this end, the more the developer understands about design, user interaction, etc., the more valuable they will be early on.
8. Is it a mistake to make the lead developer the project manager?
No simple answer on this. Depends entirely on the team, project and individuals.
9. How can I get the developer to give me an absolute answer on whether something is doable?
Clear scope definition. Sometimes that involves letting the developer ask probing questions, they’re there for a reason as the developer is often thinking that “if this happens, then that happens, is that what we really want” question. If done early in the project, this iterative process only serves to better define the scope and helps lead to a better development process, a smoother working relationship, and a better result for the client.
10. It seems that designers are under pressure to design an exceptional and unique experience and developers are under pressure to produce sites with high performance and little/no errors. Designer’s goals add pressure to developers and vice versa. How can our goals work together instead of causing pressure on each other?
The respective goals do, and will cause pressure on one another. Both must respect the other’s perspective, and keep in mind that the client’s needs are the ultimate driver.
1. Yes - but please only learn enough to influence your designs positively. Don’t steal my job!
2. I disagree, a smart designer is great to work with. However, developers hate doing things twice, so please make sure your designs are final before we build them.
3. Two words: feasibility study
4. Design for worst-case scenario, not what fits into your Photoshop design.
5. Have a good, independent project manager
6. Make sure it’s FINISHED!
7. It depends on the level of functionality. For complex interaction, bring us in during wireframes.
8. Yes - always ensure the two communicate, but there is a massive difference between the responsibilities of a lead developer and project manager. The PM should act as a shield between client and developer, to ensure the lead developer can focus on the task at hand.
9. Nothing is impossible in development, only different levels of time-consuming. Developer time is currency and you only have so much. Find out how long a feature will take and consider if you can afford it. Ultimately the yes or no comes from the budget.
10. Beer.
Designers should not be involved in design sign off end of story.
They have to much invested in it. The client should be king.
I have had a client sign off a website and then have a lead designer get their knickers in a twist because they were not involved in the sign off and it was a pixel out somewhere on the page. They wanted it redone and fixed even though the client was happy. The designer in question wouldn’t know what html was if it punched them in the face. The site was not redone but it just caused an atomsphere in the place.
The type of designers who are just gfx designers with no web knowledge should either learn or stick to print.
I have worked with some awesome designers also but these guys knew how to actually markup and limitations of each browser.
1.Yes, I have been a web designer for 10 years and all the developers I have worked with appreciate a designer that can not only design the site but also provide the HTML/CSS. Saves them time in having to fiddle with the nuances of display giving them more time to concentrate on the sites functionality. And to the comments around the design looking the same in all browsers its not only designers that pick this out, many users (marketers, project managers, customer service reps) involved in a project will grill a designer for not making their site appear the same across platform.
2. Never been scared of a developer, in fact I a find most conversations engaging and appreciate any insights to the technicalities of the build the developer can impart. Each iteration of any design I produce along with a developer I reduce the amount of changes I need to make to the original design. This has allowed me to feel confident that any design I show the client at the start of a project will remain consistent right through to the end result.
I’m going to skip the questions, but also throw my two cents out there. I work for a small company that pairs developers and designers into two-man pods. Sounds like instant war, right?
Nah. It’s pretty amazing. By placing these ‘enemies’ together, we’ve actually seen that each camp learns to respect the other quickly. Not just that, but they learn a lot from each other, and after a few months are almost inseparable.
Our designers start to design things with development in mind, and our developers build code with design in mind. It’s really beautiful.
On the handing over of PSDs - I am often involved in projects where an advertising/marketing agency with graphic designers will take on clients that also require websites. They don’t have these people on staff themselves, but instead outsource the web development component. So in that situation, the agency dealing directly with the client will prepare a PSD which is then handed over to a ‘web person’ to be turned into a fully-functional website.
How soon should a developer be engaged to sense-check a design?
The developers need to be present from day one. From intial briefings with the client through to conceptual designs the developer should be integral to the whole process. They’ll get a sense of ownership which will hopefully create a more dynamic relationship between designer and developer.
And no, I’m a designer not a developer - but I’ll always champion my other half.
@Thelonious: I always have the goal of getting the designer’s vision as close to reality as possible. I think it’s futile to assume that a designer’s vision of how something should look will 100% be the same on the web. Web != Print
I think that’s why so many designers out there still make their portfolio websites in 100% flash so they can avoid dealing with the HTML/CSS stuff.
I currently play the role of “production developer.” What is a production developer you might ask? Someone who fills the gap between designer and developer. I believe that this role may be new to the world but essential in the firm. Who’s going to optimize graphics, build assets/manage assets, do 100’s of mundane tasks then repeat again. No know really wants that job. I do.
When design hands over there files its usually, not always, sloppy and built without organization and structure. Thats where I have discussions with the developer to make sure everything is going to translate into there world.
Granted every post on this page has great answers and awesome insight, our company still values communication in every group before a project happens. Being smart (common sense) and upfront communication is so important but also understanding the process (concept-design-development-product) in every way makes or breaks a companies success.
@Ray Brown - I think that makes a lot of sense, but I guess it would depend on the type of projects that you work on.
I agree with Cristos above, this topic seems to be a flashback to 2001. Maybe its only because of the studios I have worked in, but I’ve always seen des and dev getting along for the sake of creating the best site possible.
This des vs. dev thing seems like an issue for teams that do not communicate clearly with each other. If that is the case, then close the computers, walk down to the pub, and just get to know each other. Building trust is the best way to be able to work together effectively.
As I work in both arenas, here’s my advice from experience working with both archetypes..
To Designers:
Do your visual at the screen size you expect it to be viewed at. The amount of times a huge visual has to be shrunk to screen size resulting in tiny text which is unreadable is shocking and always calls for redesign.
To Developers:
Yes the layout and design detail is very important. Compare the visual provided very carefully with your page, The default leading / line-height will not do. Fix that shit!
Hope that helps someone..
[…] Simon Mackie from Vitamin has an article online which tries to ease the tension between one of the most fraught relationships in the (corporate, certainly) web design world. […]
This issue is quite simple: designers and developers should respect each other’s professions with EQUAL REGARD. Developers make lousy designs, designers generate lousy code.
By applying a positive, open, collaborative and co-operative approach, a team of right and left brained people can come to astonishing and creative new visual and coding solutions.
Too much of the internet looks like an excell sheet, testimony to the fact that developers are indeed the gatekeepers. Sometimes visuality is more important that code efficiency.
The question is not ‘can you do it?’, rather it is ‘what is the budget/objective/market?’. Exactly the same question that art directors and product developers have always asked.
Sites built for the purpose of visual entertainment need visual design as a priority focus. Sites built for the purpose of fast and efficient information delivery will prioritise sleek coding and content delivery. Just like a newspaper is about photograph and column width, and a fashion magazine is about gloss and glamour.
The web’s delivery in terms of outcome is just as diverse as all the media we worked with before the internet came along, all that’s changed is how we interact with it.
And a final note, the most important web development team member is a copywriter. Search terms, information hierarchy, content presentation - these are all aspects copywriters specialise in, and yet, in my experience, they are treated as an add-on process at the end, when in fact they should be the first person in the website product development process.
(new media creative and educator)
To answer question 1:
I was educated as a traditional print designer and fell into web design because of my interest/obsession with the internet. Therefore, I started out designing websites without knowing a single programming language.
About 6 months after graduating, I decided to start learning how to code these sites myself. And not only did I find another enjoyable challenge, I also noticed that my designs improved dramatically.
It helps to know the rules before you break them. :)
1. Would I be a better designer to work with if I knew coding myself? Do developers appreciate knowledgeable designers?
We most certainly don’t appreciate total noobness, but I don’t think a designer should aim for knowing how to actually code. I do expect a designer to know the differences between gif, png and jpg, I expect him to be able to tell a kilobyte from a kilobit, and I want him to understand how file size affects things (for example).
3. How can stronger communication be developed not only between designers and developers, but also between designers, developers, and creative teams (art director, copywriter)? How can a team bring them into the fold more effectively?
I think it’s essential to have a sort of intranet-like site (Basecamp for example) to keep all the communication available to all and focused on the project. That also includes any files, comments, notes, and changes to all of them.
4. To developers: if there was one thing ― an ability, a bit of knowledge, an understanding ― that you could instill in all designers with the wave of a magic wand, what would it be?
That programming is a craft and an art, just like designing is, with very similar strengths and limitations, i.e. a well-thought-trough solution is better than ad-hoc one, some things are ready when they’re done. Also, that a project that is changed very often will probably need to be “redrawn” after all the changes, so drafts are essential.
5. How do you keep the goal of the project front and center so that design and development can keep a “common good” as their primary function?
I think the intranet site I’ve mentioned in point 3 serves that purpose very well, especially if it’s well organized, i.e. all the milestones and todo’s are added as they show up.
6. What’s the most helpful thing a designer can do before handing over design files?
He should use well-considered filenames and directories. I know it’s a drag for most visually-oriented people, but this helps tremendously, especially if those files actually have to be updated later.
7. How soon should a developer be engaged to sense-check a design? At design brief? Before it goes to the. client?
This depends on the kind of work the developer has to do with the design. If it’s just stuffing the html into templates, the developer doesn’t need to be involved until the html is ready. If there’s gonna be a lot of javascript/html/css work for him, he should be involved much earlier.
8. Is it a mistake to make the lead developer the project manager?
As much as it is a mistake to make the lead designer the project manager. Lead developer is a busy person. He should answer directly to the project manager and should have enough “power” to influence decisions, or even veto decisions if he’s sure they’d be detrimental to the project from his point of view.
9. How can I get the developer to give me an absolute answer on whether something is doable?
From a developer’s point of view, everything is doable, just like every design is “doable”, i.e. you can draw basically anything you want. You should rephrase the question to ask how long will it take to implement something.
10. It seems that designers are under pressure to design an exceptional and unique experience and developers are under presssure to produce sites with high performance and little/no errors. Designer’s goals add pressure to developers and vice versa. How can our goals work together intead of causing pressure on each other?
From my experience it is very common to only bring in the developers very late into the project, which I think is a mistake. The lead developer, just like the lead designer, should be with the project from the very beginning. That, unfortunately, also means he should be there when you’re talking with the client, mostly to notify the project manager of potential issues.
I hope this helps a bit.
By the way, developers are actually quite rarely under pressure to develop for high performance. We usually develop for completeness and no errors. Optimizing for performance is best done only after the code is feature-complete and relatively bug-free, if it is at all required. Most performance problems are the result of bad code architecture or programming mistakes.
A great solution I have seen is when Designers and Developers work together in the early stages of a project to create Mock ups and Prototypes which we then use for User testing. This results in a shared understanding of how the intended UI design will actually behave when a user is interacting with it, which helps create a shared vision for the project early on, promoting effective collaboration.
Iterative, User-centred design is the way forward for not having a design go too far before being reality checked by some technical development and user testing.
[…] Designers and Developers, Why Can’t We All Just Get Along? […]
In my experience the issue usually comes when developers see something in design/layout/xhtml that they will find hard to do so they substitute it with some built in control that achieves the same technical output however it usually spoils the design (grid view in .net)
this drives me nuts as i dont spend hours creating gorgeous semantic code for it to be totally re-written because its difficult to code for… spend the time, do it right!
As a designer and developer, I’ve been on both sides of this. Food for thought.
1. Would I be a better designer to work with if I knew coding myself? Do developers appreciate knowledgeable designers?
Yes and yes. Knowing code leads to a better understanding of what you should and shouldn’t do (I won’t say can and can’t do, because it seems you can pretty much ‘do’ anything - it’s more a question of is it advisable to do this rather than that).
And recently I was hired to create a custom templated design for a developer. I handed off not just the .psd files but a valid, accessible and carefully commented XHTML/CSS file. He was overjoyed. It meant significantly less work for him.
2. Designers: Developers don’t like you because you represent Work and don’t see why said work is wholly necessary. Developers: Designers are scared of you because you are the gatekeeper. This is the dynamic. Discuss.
I disagree. Or maybe I’ve just been lucky with the people I’ve worked with, but on the whole it’s been a reasonable level of creative tension between the various parties involved.
4. To developers: if there was one thing ― an ability, a bit of knowledge, an understanding ― that you could instill in all designers with the wave of a magic wand, what would it be?
That things don’t happen instantly - making a change in a design that takes 10 seconds in Photoshop might have big time implications on the developer side.
6. What’s the most helpful thing a designer can do before handing over design files?
Clean up the .psd file - get rid of anything that’s not being used, label everything else so that it’s clear.
7. How soon should a developer be engaged to sense-check a design? At design brief? Before it goes to the client?
At the beginning - or at worst, before it goes to the client for the first review.
9. How can I get the developer to give me an absolute answer on whether something is doable?
I think it’s unusual to get an absolute answer, because you can *do* just about anything. Determining whether something is *advisable* or not would be a better way to handle this; such as ‘I can do the navigation this way but it’s not working well, let’s try that way instead.’ Perhaps this is where the usability person comes in…
I’m a designer/front-end developer from the UK. Here are my thoughts…
1. Would I be a better designer to work with if I knew coding myself? Do developers appreciate knowledgeable designers?
The larger the teams of designers/developers, the greater the need for individuals on both teams to have a broader/appreciation for either discipline.
If your company is expecting to get dugg/slash dotted/main stream attention - then yes both designers who get CSS sprites/file sizes can really be a great asset.
Anymore than that from a designer would obviously help keep the teams well balanced.
I think it’s really easy for developers to develop a ‘them and us’ scenario and feel misunderstood. Who can blame them… ignorance is bliss. But if we all spent a little time with them each day to understand the number of servers around and build up a basic understanding of their day to day running we can have less “OH THE SITE IS DOWN” types of comments from people and being able to troubleshoot the issue without sounding like a complete n00b.
The greater the understanding the less percentage there will be for misunderstanding and frustration.
2. Designers: Developers don’t like you because you represent Work and don’t see why said work is wholly necessary. Developers: Designers are scared of you because you are the gatekeeper. This is the dynamic. Discuss.
Hmmm… I spoke to one very experienced front-end developer when a back-end developer said we couldn’t use THead for a first release. I was frustrated but I understood why. The other front-end developer said “Do you think he is just being lazy? Developers can be very lazy sometimes.”
So I think sometimes people can see it that way… maybe our jobs are far much more fun and less frustrating than back-end work. But if you have a great relationship with developers, hang out with them at lunch - go for a drink, then you’ll form a bond and they’ll do anything for you and visa versa. I would sooner drown in a sea of work than let my developers suffer.
So to re-iterate that comment, make work fun for them - have banter and show interest and really try to give them love and they’ll love you back. They’re not cats ffs.
3. How can stronger communication be developed not only between designers and developers, but also between designers, developers, and creative teams (art director, copywriter)? How can a team bring them into the fold more effectively?
This will always go through a roller coaster ride. Try to keep them in mind and bring them into the conversations as soon as you believe they’re roles are in discussion. It’s not easy, but if you chat to everyone about what you’re working on - people will get involved passively or by word of mouth. Just be as transparent and people will come to you!
4. To developers: if there was one thing ― an ability, a bit of knowledge, an understanding ― that you could instill in all designers with the wave of a magic wand, what would it be?
The bigger picture to constantly keep in mind the:- global strategy, constantly dynamic content, scaling design… etc
5. How do you keep the goal of the project front and center so that design and development can keep a “common good” as their primary function?
Having a vision of what you want to achieve? That sounds easier than it is…
6. What’s the most helpful thing a designer can do before handing over design files?
Semantic folder structure (but not so semantic that every file sits alone in an individual folder… :P) and communicating any thoughts
I’m a developer (I come from a Comp Sci background, I handle the databases, the server-side code, the client-side stuff, and I desperately try to keep the designer’s HTML and CSS semantic and validating)
1. Do developers appreciate knowledgeable designers?
Yes, but I think trust is more important. In my eyes, the best thing is for the designer to hand me the design and let me put the code together. Sometimes I’ll need to ask you about making changes to the design in order to make my work easier, but in those cases all I need from you is attention and an open mind, I’ll explain whatever you need to know about the dev stuff.
2. This is the dynamic. Discuss.
Disagree. I’m scared of non-web people because designers do the work that everyone sees. Most people in my co. know that the designer makes the site look good. No one really knows or understands what I do as far as making the site work. I’m mostly OK with being unrecognized, but if there are budget cuts, who’s going to get axed first?
3. How can stronger communication be developed [between everyone]?
This question aims to solve the wrong problem. The key is to have a clear definition of responsibilities, and a team with enough personal maturity to make minor changes to your work to save someone else a couple hours. Seriously, there is nothing more important than choosing the best team/employees. If you have a good person, they just make things work. If you have a bad person, they drag everything down. You can’t always pick your team, but any time you can, choose wisely. I can’t stress this enough - don’t rush into hiring/partnership/etc.
4.To developers: if there was one thing ― an ability, a bit of knowledge, an understanding ― that you could instill in all designers with the wave of a magic wand, what would it be?
No more extreme re-designs! Make constant, incremental improvements, mostly based on usability testing. We did a redesign over the summer, and now I’m working hard to do incremental improvements at least every couple months, so that we can hopefully stave off any future redesigns.
5. How do you keep the goal of the project front and center so that design and development can keep a “common good” as their primary function?
No one says “how do I keep focused on the project’s goal”. They say “I’d rather do something else, but I guess I should focus on the goals, but my heart’s not going to be in it. How do I make people think I’m doing my job?” If you’re not motivated to do something, you’re not motivated to do it, and it’s a waste of time to try to change that directly. You’ve got to find a loophole in your laziness.
6. What’s the most helpful thing a designer can do before handing over design files?
The idea that there’s one magical thing seems unrealistic. It depends on lots of things. Can I ask you to make changes after the initial hand-off? Are you giving me a psd or are you going to put together html/css/images? I suppose the most important thing would be to make -everything- a separate layer in Photoshop, because I can always merge layers, but sometimes I can do awesome CSS tricks if everything is truly separated out.
7. How soon should a developer be engaged to sense-check a design? At design brief? Before it goes to the client?
I would use the natural stages of your design. The point is to catch potential problems before you spend 5 hours tweaking something perfectly…so get a sanity check before you spend 5 hours tweaking something.
8. Is it a mistake to make the lead developer the project manager?
See #3. Pick the person with the best project management skills. The idea that a developer or a designer or any other person should always be the project manager is a mistake. Ideally, I would think you’d want a dedicated Project Manager who just manages several projects and is otherwise uninvolved in the process, so that the manager can be more neutral in making decisions.
9. How can I get the developer to give me an absolute answer on whether something is doable?
Ask. See #3. If you ask this exact question (or any question), you should get a usable answer. If not, get a new developer. If I say “maybe”, then ask me to elaborate. Is the problem the amount of time it would take? Then it depends on my current workload, the billing situation, etc. If you ask someone for information about a decision, then professional should be able to give you information about tradeoffs/outcomes for either of the choices.
10. Yadda Yadda
SEE #3.
—-
Seriously, I think you’re barking up the wrong tree. The problem isn’t that developers and designers have trouble getting along. The problem is that lots of people suck at their job. Developers and designers work closely by necessity, and therefore are much more likely to be exposed to just how much each other sucks at their job.
The solution isn’t better communication. The solution is having employees who are socially compatibly and who work smart instead of working hard. “Good to Great” teaches that companies that want to be great should expand at the rate that they can hire top-notch, team-player employees, not at the rate that they can get clients.
[…] » Read Full Article […]
[…] A while back, Vitamin blogged about the communication barrier between designers and developers. Having worked with quite a few developers, I thought I’d answer the questions that are applicable to me. […]
A comment following on from Graham’s very valid points about designers actually know how to code up 90% of a website (or more)! Not just handing over PSD’s (I prefer .ai myself) to the lovely knowledgable developer.
I’ve found that as I learn more about HTML/CSS/PHP/Java and so on, that I am becoming more and more aware of what is actually possible in a website (within a realistic timescale) and therefore half these questions seem to just disappear.
My worry is, as my coding knowledge grows, that I may perhaps be turning into more a of developer than a designer!!! :P
No not really. I know a few guys who can do stuff that just blows my head away…I wouldn’t even know where to begin to do some of the stuff they do!
However…I can’t help but notice that designers seem to get a lot of bad press. Are we really that highly-strung? (I can take it, I’m a big girl)
Perhaps it is the difference of being a designer in a big agency who creates PSD’s and expects pixel-perfect websites 2 days later! and being a designer who also codes as much of the website as she can (without taking c-rap from third party sites) who is working in a smaller office?
Doing both certainly makes you more flexible with your designs (i.e. not being pixel perfect), and realising about cross-browser and platform compatibility, as well as allowing your design to develop and become more appropriate as you take it from design file to web.
@ Graham - I think I need a pay raise too!
[…] Drop in on the discussion going on at Vitamin about ways to bridge the divide between designers and developers. Why is it that, so often, designers and developers find it difficult to work together? Ten questions posed by the audience at The Future of Web Design. […]
1) Would I be a better designer to work with if I knew coding myself? Do developers appreciate knowledgeable designers?
From a developer’s POV, I don’t expect a designer to know everything regarding the code (that’s why I’m on the project), but they should know enough to be able to discuss intelligently with me later on as we merge design and code, instead of relying on information 5 to 9 years old true example: “Can you make that a font tag with a size 2 so it looks the correct size for what we’re making the text.
9) How can I get the developer to give me an absolute answer on whether something is doable?
Give us all the information we will need (we’ll usually tell you what we need). These include what features are needed, when it is needed, what client/server platform it is to run on, and any cost limitations. Too often we get too vague a requirements, ex: I had a designer quote a small project for $X, I told him after he told the client the price, it was going to cost of almost 50% more ..all because the designer didn’t have a list of everything that was needed. This made everyone look bad.
Toby You are so on-point!
My degree is in graphic design but I now do html/css. When I have to take over a design comp from other colleagues I want to pull my hair out when I see that they have designed it at 150%!
I’m a front end dev in London and I’ve worked in a variety of agencies over the last few years ranging from a team of just 2 front end developers to around 30 and a corresponding number of designers. I’d say the practice of handing over the psd is very much the standard. When you’re dealing with huge accounts and projects you can’t use resource in the same way as a small, fast moving set up. The big difference is how that psd is dealt with and how the relationships are managed.
I’ve had psds handed over with no explanation whatsover, just 1000 layers and groups and it becomes apparent there’s some highly complicated, flash emulating javascript envisioned, except noones told me. That’s not the designers fault, it’s the project manager’s fault. It does of course matter very much on the culture in which your working, but in one agency I worked with a great designer, running through his ideas with me as he was coming up with them. We had a fantastic working relationship - very productive.
So what am I saying that’s new? Not much I guess, just wanted to chuck something in.
Our studio was sick of programmers cutting corners with all of our designs, (changing typefaces, ignoring gradients, changing rounded corners to square) so… we decided we needed to learn how to do it ourselves. I’ve been learning html, css, jquery etc over the last few years, and now we do all of our own web design AND programming, and things look and behave the way we meant for them to. Things are so much easier now, and we don’t have programmers telling us that certain things can’t be done, when what they really mean is, “we don’t really want to or have the time to figure out how to do this.” Now, I figure it out, and while its been a bit of a learning curve, its been well worth the effort in terms of having our site look well designed while meeting web standards. I think its a huge asset to be a designer with programming knowledge. I think its easier to learn the ins and outs of the web than it is to teach a programmer design sensibility. I think there are a lot of talented programmers out there, but the mindset is quite different than a designer, and its hard to meet in the middle!
Hi Everyone-
Wow, there is a lot to read through here! Lots of great topics and questions!!!
I’ll try to keep my statement general. I myself design, code, and “seo” the front end of all of the website I create.
99% of all the developers / programmers I work with absolutely love the fact that I have the ability to do so. In fact, it’s built my freelance work up quite a bit.
Programmers know that if they outsource to me as a freelancer, that what I will supply them …is exactly what they need, want and expect.
I feel that it’s the duty of all web designers, front end developers, user interface designers, etc. - To all have cross compatible skills in html, css, javascript, photoshop, etc.
To some of the other points listed:
I feel that it’s completely unacceptable for a front end developer and or programmer to drastically change the aesthetics of a web composition in the name of “code”. I agree, it’s sheer laziness or lack of knowledge.
I’ve dealt with a couple of programmers in my career that were just “no” guys - all day every day, no , no , no , - and it’s a terrible experience. There is ALWAYS a way to make something work.
Don’t get me wrong, converting an already serif font to “arial or verdana” - is not that big of a deal. But removing round corners, or gradients, etc, - not cool!
That’s my 34 cents!
AG
Communication & collaboration is a key
But I think that every company should have “sweeper”. A sweeper as defined by 37Signals is somebody who can roam between both worlds of design and programming.
Sweeper do the implement of design into code.
2. Designers: Developers don’t like you because you represent Work and don’t see why said work is wholly necessary. Developers: Designers are scared of you because you are the gatekeeper. This is the dynamic. Discuss.
woah. that is wholly dysfunctional. If that is the dynamic in your organization, run, run away as quickly as possible. You’ll never make anything great with that set up.
I am a designer and the answer to the first question is a resounding YES! I started in a print shop in the middle 80’s doing cut-and-paste and drawing my key-lines with a technical pen etc. (I am not bragging just stating for reference how much one has to learn and continue to learn to stay employable.)
When I started my career, it took 5-people to make an ad or a brochure. Now it takes one. The same will happen with web based technologies. To be employable in this economic environment you will need 5 skills. AT LEAST!
Today I am learning CSS and PHP, content management systems like Joomla, Mambo and even WordPress so I can continue to be employable and justify charging “moderate bank” to stay in the game.
“Our designers start to design things with development in mind, and our developers build code with design in mind. It’s really beautiful. “
Reading through the comments, this really stuck out to me.
I have worked with designers that can’t code at all and it pained me to see them whip up the next “latest and greatest” their mind could come up with. then when it got to my stage I had to edit the gradients for scalability, change copy for usability and ask a list of question in regards to menu functionality, hover states and the like.
On the flip side I have worked with developers that stuck to the “just build it so we can move on” attitude. Pages full of bloated code, poorly named classes and ids and pages that didn’t work cross-browser and wouldn’t scale properly without destroying the layout.
This all led to time lost and aggravation.
My favorite quote that irked me to the utmost degree.
“I don’t design for inferior browsers (IE) and don’t care if it doesn’t work them.”
Great, your client might use Safari or Firefox but, their customers might be using anything else. Pretty design
You know, it seems that this question is always out there in discussion. I worked on my own for so long (not right now) that I worked in small teams where communication between the design and development teams was absolutely essential. There’s no way to deliver on large-load, short-timeline projects without utter cohesion between both teams.
Maybe I’ve had a bit of an easier time at working with development teams because I have forced myself to learn HTML, CSS, AS and enough PHP to be constantly asking my developer buddies fix-it questions. Maybe my old fledgling understanding of development has helped me prepare my designs and source files for cut-up and implementation.
From a designer’s perspective (which is really the only one I’ve got): both sides should learn as much as they can about the other sides’ disciplines. It can do nothing but good, fostering a greater understanding for what goes into the tasks each other have.
If you wireframe appropriately, you can avoid a lot of later confusion, as the process requires both sides of the team to be signing off on what is to be done. In some cases, this will also free scheduling dependencies as certain grids, image-sizes and other guidelines are often set.
More than anything else, if you realize that working with the other side will make your product better in the end, you’ll both do much to work better with each other.
This is a great topic. While designers and developers typically have had unique and separate skill sets — more “hybrids” exist today — on both sides — than ever before.
The more hybrids you have — across designers and developers — the more enjoyable the site build experience and the better the performance of the end product.
The trick is not viewing the initial prototype as a “final” product. Today’s prototypes have to account for a lot more browser compatibility, semantic structure, multiple reviews, edits/mods/changes, etc and massaging than they use to — to be repeatable from both a design and developer perspective. [Note: I have left out many variables that drive design☺ and cms implementation]
Its matter of building multiple prototypes into the site build process — and reducing unnecessary pressure on either designer/developer/pm or client side — by communicating openly, responsively and setting/resetting expectations along the way.
In the end – its still just a web site.
“Mass production” isn’t necessary or recommended at the infamous “design approval” stage. That’s actually where the site build and prototype process begins.
An F-35 fighter jet at $80M per jet – has multiple countries/companies/departments building it. US/UK - Lockheed, NG, BAE, etc. Think designers and developers have problems? Put engineers of multiple countries/countries together – to put it in perspective. Its now on its 13th test flight prototype – with a mass production schedule date of 2011.
Their mission is high performance – form and function.
Sounds similar eh? However, the difference is their performance / collaboration goals are driven with by threats of warfare and security — while the collaboration of designers and developers is driven by the necessity of web-standards compliance.
More hybrids please:)